Deconstructing and responding to the most common—and most annoying—arguments that Tim gets from atheists, and Cal gets from theists. It’s a different, and less boring spin on the usual “does God exist” debate but there’s no compromise of reason and fury as we get down and dirty in this verbal fist-fight.

30 COMMENTS

  1. Another Cal Kane moment…”You’ve got a voice for radio and court.”  And you are so right, Cal, thes side oof the ocean looves your accent!
    The word homosexuality has become too bland.  At the CDC, they say Men who have sex with men (thus sticking the male organ into another male’s body is a perversion of a good).  HiV is a result obtained by placing something where it was not meant to go.  (Science can surely appreciate that.)  Oh my gosh, Tim!  You are a quickster, “…I understand it was engineered in a laboratory in Scotland…”  Oh my!  Cal and the shrinking God–very observant, but God = Good…He is All Good.  Excellent Tim…atheists are building a false god and criticizing it and asking theists to respond to the atheists’ false ideas.  That is exactly what I was trying to say about the debate regarding contraception, abortion…Cal was making false claims about Catholics, and I thought he should have read Humanae Vitae if he wanted to approach it from what Catholics believe, think, do, say, etc.
    These are so enjoyable, Cal!  Thanks for the mention.  In my ‘vericatness’ I’ve looked at life from both sides now, and having found the greatest treasure possible, I cannot help but hope that all find it as well.  For you, I hope something our darlin’ Tim says will penetrate your soul.  For me to not desire this, would be contrary to what I’ve come to know and would be quite terrible of me not to desire that you,  your Emma and children find the greatest treasure here in order to be a part of it eternally 🙂  You may think it misplaced, and that is ok.  Just know it is out of love of God and love of neighbor and not in any way out of spite.
    Can’t wait till next time…and I hope to see a picture of the cutest dog!

  2. Good stuff guys. Cal, It’s funny you mention this because one of my biggest pet peeves among atheists is the ol’ “If I were God, I wouldn’t have done things like this!!!1” The only thing that follows from this is that you are not God. God being omniscient means he has access to all the information and you in fact do not have access to all the information. You are woefully unqualified to judge His actions. You are woefully unqualified to judge my actions! lol.

  3. Also Cal, do not confuse “all-powerful” with “all willing” or “omnivolent.” The two are absolutely not the same and God is the former but not the latter. God being omnipotent means He can do all things that are logically possible. God cannot make square circles or make both “a” and “~a” true at the same time in the same way. We are not puppets on a string, we are created in His image and likeness which means that like God, we have an intellect and a free will. We can actually be causal agents. Whenever we cause something out of order with what God created (by perverting/distorting it) that’s called “sin.” God does not cause sin, ever! It seems that your conception of God is based primarily on an Islamic/Calvinistic idea of God instead of an orthodox Christian/Catholic idea. It would behoove you to look at the difference.

  4. And furthermore, although both you and Tim did discuss this, you’re right, the burden of proof rests on the one making the claim. Tim rightly pointed out “there is no God” and “there is likely no God” are claims that require evidence. It irks me to no end when atheists say “there is no God” and then whine at theists to prove God exists while not supporting their claim. I can see however how you might be frustrated if a theist claims “there is a God” and then spends all their time whining about how atheists cannot prove that “there is no God.” This would be resolved if people were just more careful in how they talk lol. 

    However, if it is indeed true that the statement “there is no God” CANNOT be proved, then atheists need to stop making it. If you think it is true, prove it. Same thing with “there is likely no God.” While you may not be trying to deductively disprove the existence of God, that inductive claim still requires evidence. As Hitchens said, “claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

  5. Everyone, I highly recommend Trent Horn’s book “Answering Atheism.” It’s available on amazon and he really goes into depth on all the claims including Cal’s “special pleading” objection to the cosmological argument/contingency argument.

  6. @11:50 :,D Nice argument. But uninformed. Ive got a list of emperical evidence. Heres one. Ricardo Castanon. Look him up.

  7. Evil exists because we have freewill. God is justice, truth, mercy, and love. God will respect our decision to do evil. This includes Satan. Satan decided to become perversion and use his free will to break the laws of goodness. Reality is based on laws. The physical law, chemical law, biological law, natural law, and spiritual law. Because we are given free will, we can break the natural law and the spiritual law. And because we can break these laws, there will be reprocussions and this will include the harming of innocence. God controls demons to an extent. He does not control what they do because they made their choice and He will respect that. Demons are dogs on a leash. But sometimes God loosens the leash in accord to what we do. If we choose more and more evil, because we are basically asking for Him to loosen the leash, He will do so albeit it sadly. And thus, more innocents are affected by the loosening of leashes by the rebellion of their people.
    Demons can take over our chemistry, our imagination, and our dreams. In respect to homosexuality, isnt it possible that through the broken human spirit, a demon can hijack this into something disordered? Can we mistake something that looks like love to be love? If not, what about pedophiles? Ultimately its the individual choice to act on these measures that is the sin. Alternately to pop culture says, you can choose to love and to fall in love. You do not choose attraction, but you can diminish it. Its called discipline. Otherwise every priest and nun that ever lived must have had secret love affairs, which is untrue.
    As for sickness, this is also a form of the loosening of the leash. He allows sickness to prevail because of original sin, and the sin that takes place afterward. Black Sin is a horrible abomination that gives Satan power due to the precepts of the nature of the relationship of Satan, humanity and God. God can crush Satan, but that will ultimately happen of the end of time when Satan thinks he has won. But for now, God will respect the unspeakable choices the worst of us make to fuel the demons and thus, there is more chaos and more disorder. You focus on God as the evil one, but you are falling into the trap of the Dog. He wants you to revile God. In this He causes God the most pain and thus gives himself the most power. Because of blasphemy. Blasphemey exists in the blackest of sins which deny the preciousness of human life and goodness. And thats why the world is the way its always been.

  8. Cal
    To a point you make… You always proclaim the death of 99% of all species to be negative. So let me ask you this.
    Why is death itself bad? (Please distinguish between animals plants and people)
    Not talking about circumstances. I mean just death. Why is it bad. What makes it bad. How is bad. Is it always bad? If so when is it bad? Why are there conditions in when it is bad? Is it consistently bad? Is it sometimes bad? Because ultimately you are just not consistent in this field even though you heckled God on it.

  9. TheDRSophia  The circumstances of death are hugely important so it’s a bit unfair to ask me to leave that part out haha 🙂

  10. Matthewpao   But if we are all unqualified to make moral judgments and only God can do that, doesn’t that render any judgments you make about God (his love, his grace and so on) the same as any judgments I make about God?

    ps. It’s good to see you again man not seen any comments by you in ages 🙂

  11. CalKane Matthewpao Fair point, I’ll clarify. Neither you or I can judge the culpability of
    each others’ actions. One needs to be omnipotent in order to do that and that is what Jesus is getting at when He said “judge not lest you be judged.” We can and should judge the objective moral value of ones actions but one’s subjective culpability is something we cannot know for sure. We could make an educated, qualified guess but it wouldn’t be certain and it can get quite dangerous (which is why Jesus warned against it). 

    It’s good to talk to you again to! I look forward to your response.

  12. CalKane TheDRSophia The circumstances of death are not important until you build the argument that demonstrates WHY, and also how it applies to your point.  This is another atheist tactic that I didn’t get to—you guys say things as if they apply to your point, but you don’t build the argument.  Species dying off has no value to the argument, as created things are naturally inclined to decay and death.  I don’t know if you can ignore the order-and-precision evidence, and then use make-believe-evidence out of species dying. Humanity—the order which proceeded from Adam and Eve—is still here, aren’t we?  Then what are you complaining about?
    Furthermore, if a species dying off is of concern to you, then the global holocaust of abortion should be abhorrent to you, without any compromise whatsoever, since one human person intentionally undone in the womb (at ANY stage) is much more terrible than the extinction of an obscure species of dragon fly.  Just sayin 😉

  13. CalKane Matthewpao Those are not judgements about God they are statements from reality and statements from God’s own revelation of himself. And calling you a human being who is Scottish isn’t a judgement either.

  14. JediMasterTim CalKane TheDRSophia

    “The circumstances of death are not important until you build the argument that demonstrates WHY, and also how it applies to your point”

    That’s fair, all you have to do is ask 🙂

    To put it simply, the circumstances of death matter because of morality. If I need to go over my moral compass again and/or I need to point out why an old women dying in her bed surrounded by her family after a long, happy life (a good death) and one of the many millions of children that die from lack of clean drinking water (a bad death) are different then I think you guys need to ponder on this question as well. So I can’t give a one size fits all answer for “Why is death itself bad” without first knowing what type of death we are talking about. If that’s some kind of “Atheist” move then cool haha but that’s how I roll 🙂

  15. JediMasterTim CalKane TheDRSophia

    And I’m not going down the rabbit hole of abortion with you but nice try 😉

  16. CalKane JediMasterTim TheDRSophia “That’s fair, all you have to do is ask :)”
    But that wouldn’t be as much fun 😀
    And I think we need to take this point to the next Facebook Live Fight.  Feeling that?

  17. CalKane JediMasterTim TheDRSophia

    Ok soo….
    You are declaring the basis of whether death is good or bad based on the concept of justice. In the case of the old woman, it is ultimately just that she died in that situation. In the case of the children, it is not just. Therefore, because you attribute (rather falsely) all events that occur under the jurisdiction of God, you conclude that he is not just, therefore negating one of the prime attributes of God.

    You bring a new field into it which is not the aspect of death itself which you initially seemed to declare, but rather the conflict of God’s justice.

    In this case, you are also looking at the situation through a rather disconnected view as well.

    The jurisdiction of God happens to include everything except that which He has already allowed to be apart from Himself in love for His creations. Thus Free will.

    Lets say one day someone decides to reject God in rebellion and embrace Satan and in thus doing so that person commits a heinous sin. Would it be divine justice for God to stop each and every person who does this? No. That violates the rule of free will completely. If you are not allowed to become the evilest of evils or the holiest of holies (weird phrasing I know) then the concept of free will is useless. 

    And also, no evil can exist without affecting innocence. 

    (i.e. abortion, an unjust end because you effectively rob that being from ever having a chance to learn, to grow, to play, to fall in love, to have a family of their own. That is a crime. That is evil.)

    You may ask, why didn’t God stop Mao Zedong from implementing his Great Leap Forward, thus killing millions and millions of people within 4 years? Why indeed. But oh right. He did warn us, He warned all of us.
    “If you eat of this fruit surely you will die”
    In prophecies of the day he warned us
    “The errors of Russia will spread throughout the world”
    (in which He also included feminism. Modern Feminism comes from Lenin himself)
    He warned us through His church which vocally denounced Nazism, Communism, and Socialism when it was popular everywhere else.

    He warns, we don’t listen. Innocents are affected. God grows more and more fed up with us.
    Eventually, Divine Mercy chaplets won’t be enough and God will, very soon, take vengeance for the innocents that perished due to our sin. You should know this Cal, you’ve read Prophets haven’t you? 
    “By pestilence and by the sword”

  18. I’m a bit green about the flow of debating, so forgive my ignorance, this isn’t a dig at Cal at all, I noticed that when I watch or read debates between Athiests and thiests, for some reason that athiest seems to think that any of the questions directed at the thiest, that they don’t apply to the athiest.

  19. TheDRSophia CalKane JediMasterTim

    “You are declaring the basis of whether death is good or bad based on the concept of justice. In the case of the old woman, it is ultimately just that she died in that situation. In the case of the children, it is not just. Therefore, because you attribute (rather falsely) all events that occur under the jurisdiction of God, you conclude that he is not just, therefore negating one of the prime attributes of God”

    Yeah you pretty much got it. If God is the all might, the unmoved mover, then everything that happens is part of his plan. So all the children that die for no good reason are part of his plan and his responsibility. To say otherwise is to say that God doesn’t know what will happen to each and every one of us and that means he isn’t all knowing. I don’t see a way round that. Even if you put free will into things, that still doesn’t get you out of the fact that God knows what people will do with this free will when he created them.

  20. I love when Cal brings his A game to these.  When that happens I think Cal makes a lot of intelligent arguments, despite his ultimate conclusions being completely wrong.  Like Tim I can only shake my head and throw up my hands.  To steal a line from President Reagan, the problem with our atheist friends*is that “they know so much that isn’t so.”  

    I pray that Cal will discover what Catholicism really is, what the Church really is, what the Gospel really means.  Saint Monica, please pray for him.  When that happens he will convert, and his gratefulness at finally living in the truth will slightly overwhelm his disgust at how foolish he was before that time.  Like me!

    * Not to include our atheist enemies

  21. I’m at the 12 minute mark.  Cal, I enjoy listening to this show, however, that empirical evidence argument you just gave is a lousy argument. We have all the empirical evidence in the world to prove God exist.  For each saint, we actually need three miracles from approved from the medical field. That’s all the empirical evidence you need. You just chose not to accept these data. And another thing is, before you actually gather data, the first step is to assume everything has a design and an order. Which means that subconsciously, you do believe in intelligent design by an all knowing being . And remember we have Fatima which you chose to put it aside and just say “bizarre things happen”. LOL. OH my gosh I actually quote an atheist from a past show. That has never happened. take that as a compliment.  Arguing is useless to me to prove God’s existence. I promise you this, Cal. If you were to know me personally, there’s no way in the world you would still be an atheist. Although, you are lucky to have Tim guide you in your journey to your creator and redeemer. God bless you, Cal. You’re a good person.

  22. AFlowerofStTherese  “We have all the empirical evidence in the world to prove God exist.  For each saint, we actually need three miracles approved from the medical field. That’s all the empirical evidence you need. You just chose not to accept these data”

    Show me your data and let’s look at it together 🙂

  23. Matthewpao CalKane  Sorry this response is so late man I must have got caught up in something and forget about it 🙂

    What you’re describing sounds like moral relativism to me and it’s also worth pointing out that God commanded some pretty terrible, immoral things back when he was doing that sort of thing (drowning the whole word is a good example) So I don’t get how God is fit to judge anything moral at all.

    Again, sorry about the lateness of this reply.

  24. @cal. Really? Coming from a guy who wants to wipe out the entire ISIS, you should understand why God wanted to rid of the wickedness of men.

  25. Its all over the internet. There are so many miracles out there authenticated by medical doctors both theist and atheist who consequently had no choice but to convert. You can look into miracles at Lourdes. That’s another Marian apparition. I have no idea how you guys can miss these things.
    But normally, with a very close friend, I usually just present the empirical evidence of God I’ve experienced personally.

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